Dating: The Right to Be Choosy

In this episode, we're getting personal. We were talking about the subject that makes your palms all sweaty and weak in the knees, yep, we're talking dating. Everyone has a right to date. They have a right to be single, to be choosy, and it's even okay to feel lonely too. 

Guests: 
- Wensday Kraemer, Self-Advocates Network Development (SAND) Project  Coordinator for the Arkansas Alliance for disability advocacy at DRA 

Helpful Links: 

• Self-Advocates Network Development (SAND)
• Victims with Disabilities
• Sexual Violence and Intimate Partner Violence Among People with Disabilities
• Dating with a Disability (Easterseals)

Transcript

Lani Jennings-Hall: 0:00

At Disability Rights Arkansas, we're focused on guidance for people with disabilities on how to navigate your rights, things that help with your everyday life, and how to navigate the complex systems of how to get the support you need. In this podcast, Including You, we bring that information directly to you, the listener on things like accessibility questions, career and care, and even the nuances of love live with a disability. I'm your host, Lani Jennings-Hall. In this episode, we're getting personal. We were talking about the subject that makes your palms all sweaty and weak in the knees, yep, we're talking dating. Today I'm joined by Wensday Kraemer, Self Advocate Network Development Project Coordinator for the Arkansas Alliance for Disability Advocacy at Disability Rights Arkansas. Thank you for joining me today Wednesday.

Wensday Kraemer: 0:50

Thank you for having me.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 0:51

Can you tell our listeners just a little bit about your background?

Unknown: 0:55

My name is Wednesday, Wednesday Kraemer. And I was not born on a Wednesday like most people think. My name actually comes from the Addams Family. I always like to start with that. I am the Self Advocates Network Development (SAND) Project Coordinator at Arkansas Alliance for Disability Advocacy. So that really means that I provide advocacy, training and leadership development to people with disabilities across Arkansas, Advocacy and talking about issues that affect people disabilities. It's really important to me because I myself am actually a self advocate. I was born with a disability. I have spina bifida, so I've used a wheelchair all my life. And I know today we're talking about dating, relationships, different things like that. And so I find this topic so important. I am, you know, having not been out of college very long. So dating is a part of my life right now. And so I love talking about it and how my experiences may differ from friends I have that don't have disabilities.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 1:55

Yes, we're getting personal. Today we're talking about, we're talking about dating, we're talking about sex life. We do want to put a small disclaimer on this podcast, we are talking dating, we are talking sex, these can be uncomfortable topics for some, but these are important topics, especially when we're talking about dating. Well, for anyone, but from the perspective of an individual with a disability, and we really thought this was a conversation that needed to be

Wensday Kraemer: 2:21

Yeah, so this topic is so important for us to had. talk about. People with disabilities are, um, you know, like people without disabilities, many of us date, want relationships. I have friends who are disabled, who are now married, and are looking at starting a family. And you know, this topic is also important because research shows that individuals with disabilities are more than twice as likely to be victims of violent crimes as those without a disability. So it's important we talk about, you know, knowing your rights and being safe. And, you know, not really not wanting to talk about it. And as sometimes dating can be awkward to talk about sexuality, relationships, all of that can be kind of an awkward conversation for everyone, but it's been so important, we have that conversation. So that way, we all are better educated, and everyone is safe, and feels comfortable, you know, being in the dating scene. And if that is what they want to do, and as the tools and resources, they need to do that and hear from experiences from people with disabilities, about what it's like, been dating so they can hear the good, and the bad, and all that.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 3:38

Now, I think you bring up a really great point Wednesday, you know, those conversations are awkward, you know, thinking back to, you know, the talk with your parents or your guardian or, or the sexual education that's offered in, in a school setting. And I'm thinking back to I was from a very rural school setting. And, and for us the quote unquote, sexual education that we received was the boys in one room, the girls in another and the girls learn, frankly, about their period. And that's not sexual education.

Wensday Kraemer: 4:15

Yes, yeah. Um, depending on, you know, where you live, and even within, you know, depending on what state you live in, what school you go to sexual education looks different for everyone. But like I said a minute ago, people with disabilities are more likely to be victims of violent crimes, including sexual assault. And so it's so important that we talk about sexuality, what's okay what's not okay, importance of saying no, and also just the importance of you know, being open, like I said about this conversation so everyone can be safe, and everyone feels like they can, I mean, to really be part of this conversation with dating, and they feel like they belong in the dating thing because people with disabilities, like I said, many of us do want to date and do date, and that is something that needs to be talked about more.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 5:01

Yeah, absolutely and the dating world is is so different now. I mean, are you dating online? Or are you dating in person? And I think as you said, you really have to know your boundaries, you really have to know what you're comfortable with that self awareness and that, and that self determination, and when so do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Wensday Kraemer: 5:23

Yes, I love how you use the word boundaries, I think it's so important to know what those boundaries are. And to be self aware. And self awareness is all about knowing yourself, and you know, being more open with these conversations. And it really allows people to think and reflect on what they would want or what they wouldn't want. So, you know, as an adult, I have figured out what I like, what my preferences are, what I don't like what I'll accept what I won't accept in a conversation, or more with an individual I'm interested in, and I know can assert those boundaries. And you mentioned like the different ways you can date now with where we're in in 2023, as we're recording this, you know, I currently am on dating apps, which is an interesting experience. And on there, I am very quick to, you know, exit the conversation, delete the conversation and be like, you know, this isn't what I want anymore. So I'm going to not speak to you anymore. And we'll just try with the next one. And I think with the, you know, different ways of dating. And there's something else we were going to talk about today, too, is disclosure. And with myself and many other people, my age in our 20s 30s are dating online now, a big topic that I've seen among different people disabilities is Do you disclose or do you not disclose online? If you're not just meeting someone in person? You know, what, what, what does that look like? And so for me, personally, I do disclose. Now what what that means for me is I don't put it in my bio, I don't write out,"I'm disabled." But I, like I mentioned the very beginning, I am in a wheelchair, and I have pictures where you can clearly see my wheelchair. And I also in my bio, don't necessarily directly say, like I said, I don't say I'm disabled. But I do talk about my passion for disability rights. And so in conjunction with the two, and what I put as my job title being an advocator of disability rights, and, you know, it is pretty clear then, that I am disabled. I choose to do it, because I would rather read out people that you know, wouldn't be interested at all and having a conversation with me. And I know other people that decide not to disclose in any form on their dating profiles, because they want someone to get to know them a little bit before they disclose. And I can understand that as well.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 8:02

I don't I don't want to sound you know, bad or anything in this. But can you talk about? Have you have you faced stigmas from disclosing or not disclosing on in either way, I can imagine just from some of the research that I've done there is there are some weirdos out there. Have you faced any of those stigmas? And in the dating online app with with the disclosure piece of it?

Wensday Kraemer: 8:26

Yeah, so um, something I didn't mention a minute ago that I probably should have. I have been on and off dating apps for the last like, I don't know, seven, eight years since I was an undergrad. And when I very, very first started dating apps, like the first time I ever got on one, I actually didn't disclose my disability. Honestly, like, again, it was so long ago that I don't remember exactly what my reasoning was. I think I had another one at that time. That wasn't, and I in my mind, and I don't think like my disability shouldn't really be a factor if someone's interested in me or not. But so I just didn't think to put one I had some cute pictures of me just sitting. And like where you couldn't really tell I was in a wheelchair. And so that's just what I chose to do at the time. But I distinctly remember, I'm talking to guy and we'd have like a pretty long conversation. We had some things in common. And I remember him send a picture. Like he was hanging out with some of his friends. And he's like, oh, like let me see like a picture of you with your friends. And so the picture I sent him at that point, like I said, Talk to him for a little bit. You could clearly see I was in a wheelchair, because it was a full body picture. And immediately no conversation, he left the conversation and just like exited out and deleted me from like one of his matches. And so from then on, I was like okay, let me just right out of the gate what you know, so that way I don't have to have that experience. Now on the flip side of that, since I have chosen and I really believe I will continue to have some form of disclosure or or make it apparent in some form that I am disabled on my profile. I, you know, I have received interesting messages. And while I'm only on dating apps so much depending how busy I am, and I go through seasons where I'm like, I'm done with these, and I delete them. And then I, you know, eventually redownload them, because I go to weddings, and I'm like, Okay, maybe we'll try this again. And what I have gotten on more than one occasion, a message that, you know, beginning may be really nice, like, Hey, how's your day going? What are you doing, you know, some pleasantries like that. But eventually, or right at the very beginning, I get a message along the line of, can you have sex? I've literally gotten like that direct question. Can you have sex? Or a direct question about my disability? And I'm always at this point that it hasn't happened real recently. But previously, when it has happened I just delete the match. And I'm like, I'm not dealing with this. I would be interested if someone said that now to see how I'd respond and be like, what, why? Why do you Why are you assuming these things? And so yeah, and I had, which I know is something that we're kind of going to touch on. I had someone who I believe was just curious, but alluded to the fact that like, maybe we can have relations in your wheelchair. And it was much more crude the way he said it, but that is what he said. And his profile didn't give any indication that he was that kind of guy. But he did say that, and that goes into research I've done before. And things I've heard of fetishes, and devotees. And devotees are, you know, people that are interested in people and have a preference towards people with disabilities. And so that is something also to kind of be aware of and to know. And so again, I think he was maybe more interested, maybe he'd never met with someone that has a disability. And so he thought it'd be different and interesting. Again, that person was unmatched immediately as well. But I've gotten, I have several stories like that.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 12:08

So being aware of curiosities versus fetishes, or devotees. Something to keep in mind when when dating. So we talked a little bit about dating via app. Let's talk about about dating in person. I mean, there are obviously considerations for dating in person, you know, the old school way. It's, it's not as common these days to just meet up with someone at a bar or at a library or I don't know Walmart, where do people meet these days? I don't even know.

Wensday Kraemer: 12:40

My parent definitely met in a Walmart parking lot.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 12:43

That's fantastic. I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure my parents met at a grocery store. So that's, that's Walmart. I don't I don't think it was Walmart for them. I think it was like a harvest foods or something. But, but yeah, so I mean, it does still happen. Um, but I do know that there are considerations for for dating in person, and you want to talk a little bit about some of the things to consider when when dating in person as well.

Wensday Kraemer: 13:14

Yeah. So um, even when going out with friends and especially, you know, dating, dating is awkward. At least I think for most people with or without a disability?

Lani Jennings-Hall: 13:25

Yeah, girl.

Wensday Kraemer: 13:25

Yeah, I think I don't think that's just a that's a for everyone thing, generally speaking. Yeah, I think you know, accessibility is still a really big concern that a lot of people with disabilities have.You know, even when I go out with my friends, I had a friend, once we were coming back from a Mexican restaurant, she's like, oh, you should come up to my apartment. And you know, we had a few drinks before this. So, you know, she, she wasn't and we did have a designated driver, so no worries. But she wasn't, I don't think, clearly thinking because she lived on the third floor. And there was no elevator. And so I was like, I can't I literally cannot come visit you at your apartment. And so even someone I was close to who knew me well, and and, you know, generally was more aware of that usually wasn't thinking about that. So accessibility concerns at, you know, various housing places like if you want to go to someone house, and then also even like going to a restaurant. Restaurants, especially if you're, you know, maybe going to not a chain restaurant, you're going to like a small, cute little Italian place or something. They may not always be the most accessible. And so yeah, I would say even when I'm traveling, you know, for non dating reasons or going somewhere, I usually look up if I don't know place to see if they're accessible. But if I am talking to someone about potentially meeting them in a public place, that is something that I do a lot of research for, and I put it really on myself because it is like I said, dating is already kind of awkward. And then to have to like, I mean, if someone is in a wheelchair And then I think we can assume that it has to be accessible. But I don't necessarily in our first 10 conversations, want to explain all of the things like I need, and that's just a lot to potentially put on someone who I may only go on one date with, and like, who doesn't need to know all of my business and everything I would need. Um, if you want to do that, and have that conversation right off the bat, then I think that's great. But I just honestly, for me, I just don't think it's worth it. Unless I'm going to be with someone long term. And I haven't had a long term relationship. I've just got it on a few dates here and there. So when I have gone on a date, I have or have talked to someone about potentially going on a date, I have done a lot of research, or I really like when a guy is like, where do you want to go? And then I suggest a place that I know, like the bathrooms accessible, I know that that place is accessible, I won't have to ask for a lot of help, things aren't as tall. You know, it is okay to ask for help. But on a first date, I really just don't want, you know, someone I don't really know, well, having to help me with personal things.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 16:04

No. And I think that's a great point too. And this kind of goes back to that self awareness that that, you know, knowing what what you're comfortable asking for what you're comfortable, you know, just knowing what you want ahead of time. But also using your voice and advocating for yourself. I think that's, that's very important to know that you have the right to do that. While you're dating, like, okay, look, these are, these are the things that I know I need upfront, like, Okay, we're going on this date, I need to know where we're going, because I need these things. And I think that's a great point. That if you're gonna take this, you can date and then you can still do all these things. And these things are things you gotta have.

Wensday Kraemer: 16:46

Yes, I think it is a bit of a side comment, but it is, I think difficult in dating or even with friendships, but especially with dating, you know, people may want to surprise you. And unfortunately, unless like I've disclosed a lot, or I'm in like a long term relationship with someone who's been around me enough and, and really understand what accessibility means and means for me, I can't like, surprises aren't a thing. Like, I can't have that or I mean, I guess I can but then there's always the risk of showing up in and then it not working out. And that would be for me real awkward. And you know, I think a place not being accessible is nothing to be embarrassed about, I think that's solely on them. But in that moment, when you're dressed up, and like wanting to like you know, someone to think you're cute, I can't imagine what that feeling would feel like.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 17:41

Yeah, so definitely being prepared to speak up for yourself and, and advocating for what you need and what you what you have the right to have. You know, like being able to, to get into the building is very key and very important. So now, I think that that's a great point. I do want to circle back real quick to to kind of the beginning of our conversation about safety, because I know you've talked about it a little bit, but I really want to kind of circle back to it. Because we've talked about accessibility. We've talked about you know, that that first time dating, and I don't think it is we just kind of tiptoed along the safety piece. But I do really want to I do want to hit home on that it really is important. And sexual education is very soft in a lot of schools. And and yes, it's a it's a, it's an embarrassing conversation to have with any parent, but there are so it's I just want to drive home, I want to know we're wrapping up this conversation that those conversations are necessary. I mean, it's a scary world out there for any female period. I mean, I mean, I'll get on my soapbox here. I mean, you're not gonna meet many females that after a day walking home and in the dark or whatever, they most likely are carrying their keys. They've got a you know, their keys tucked between the finger because stuff happens. But I do know, as you quoted, I was like, Can you re quote that stat for us about the some of the rates?

Wensday Kraemer: 19:17

Yes. So people with disabilities are twice or even sometimes three times as likely to be victims of violent crimes and that and that includes crimes like sexual assault sentences in 61 show higher rates, which will be kind of linked in the resources as well, some of those that I'm mentioning right now. Um, so it is, you know, it is a difficulty you know, I, the reality is as someone in a wheelchair who isn't maybe quite as strong as someone else, it would be in a especially in a private place. reality for me, it'd be easier for someone to overpower me than maybe someone else I can't, you know, run away if my wheelchair isn't near me, like, I'm basically stuck, which is unfortunate. So I think that's why it's so important to make sure you have safeguards in place. And I think it's one of the things that even, like you said, I think this is a issue for other woman, of course too, issues like, you know, well, something happened, you know, telling someone where you're going, you know, maybe even a close family or friend member sharing your location, saying, like, I'm supposed to be done with this date, by this time, having a code word, like, if I text you unicorns, you know, like, hey, you need to, like, I need help. And I also think, you know, I think it's nice, if people in a sometimes a safer choice to meet in a public place first, if you've never met someone first, and, you know, drive separately, you know, don't maybe get in the vehicle with someone the first time you've met that man, and a lot of these safety tips people may have heard of before, I think it's important to keep reminding people of these, because I, you know, I think they can make a really big difference.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 21:11

And, and I, I feel like I have these conversations on several of these podcasts, you have these rights, these are conversations that every single individual, not just female, every individual hears when they're dating, like, these rights are the same for everybody. You, we all have these rights. And I just want everyone to remember that you have these rights when dating. Everyone has the right to date, no matter what they choose to or not. That's completely up to the individual, what they want to do they still have that right to date.

Wensday Kraemer: 21:44

And, you know, kind of along the same lines, um, you know, you, you, you know, of course have the right to say no, and you should ever feel comfortable. You have the right. I mean, you should expect people to treat you with respect that they aren't, that's not okay. And you, I mean, you, like I said have the right to say no. And as an individual disability, I know, you know, I'm speaking as a female. And I know in general, for females, confidence can be challenging, and I think disability can add a layer to that, potentially, especially, depending on your age, and you know, you have the right to be choosy. Like you know, singleness, at least for me can be lonely, but you have the right to be choosy. And to decide, like, Hey, this is what I want from someone. And if I'm not getting that, then I will continue to be single until someone gets that gives me that and you know, just like someone without a disability, you should only you know, want the very best for yourself. I really hope that for everyone and you, you should have the boundaries that you feel like you need to have, and only accept the very best.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 22:57

Right to be choosy. That is the name of the podcast right? Or the name of this episode. Right there. You have the right to be choosy. I love it. We got kind of heavy there at the end. So Wensday, we are going to do a quick round of what are some red flags that you may see in the dating world because, I mean, there's there's just some, there's just all kinds of things out there right now. So we've kind of tiptoed around some of some of the things you've seen, but Wensday hit us with some red flags, you may see or some of our listeners may see or hear in the dating world.

Wensday Kraemer: 23:41

So I would say, I'm going to preface this by saying this is if you've made it clear, and like you, you know, you're just wanting to date, you're not interested in just hookups if you are, you know, go you can do that and that is your you know, that is your right to have a hookup but um, for me, like I am interested in dating in a relationship with someone. And you know, for me, it's especially on my profile, make it pretty clear what I'm looking for. So if he if a guy for me, I am straight. If a guy immediately messaged me and asked me about sex, can I have it? How do I have it? How many times I've had it had all those questions, that's a red flag and an unmatch for me. I also would say, you know, just general red flags. For me, especially when we're talking about virtual dating. You know, do guys have clear pictures of themselves? You know if I can't really see what you look like that's a little concerning. If you look different in all your pictures, maybe we need to make sure they're not a catfish. I also red flag for me is when I see in their bio like, oh, I don't know what to say. Here's my Snapchat, and like pretty clearly like not really interested in probably dating them. They may just want some things that you know I'm personally not interested in.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 25:01

just want to send some specific pictures. Yeah.

Wensday Kraemer: 25:06

if they can't ask about you if you're talking, and they're just talking about themselves, or they can keep the conversation going, and you're the only one asking questions, and they're giving one or two word answers, they keep responding. But you know, they're not really engaging in the conversation, I would say, I could say that would be a red flag to the others are some red flags. I've definitely been.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 25:27

Thank you so much Wednesday. Okay, I have one final question for you. And I did not prepare you for this. And I apologize. If you had one word of advice for dating in today's day and age. What? What word of advice would you have for dating with a disability?

Wensday Kraemer: 25:47

So if I, if I had it, like really close this one, say one thing about dating with a disability, especially in today's technological dating scene, I would say with dating that it is so important, to be self aware, before you really start a journey. Know who you are and what you want, and know what boundaries you have. And really think that through. And as you're talking to people in person or virtually, that you have that in mind, because I think it's easy to get enthralled by like, well, he's, you know, for me, because I'm straight and I like guys, you know, he's really cute. You know, maybe I can be okay with this. What it is something that if you asked me a month ago, it was a deal breaker. And again, like something I said earlier, it's okay to be choosy. And at the same time, it's also okay to feel loneliness and singleness. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't still be choosy. So it's okay to be both.

Lani Jennings-Hall: 26:56

Wednesday. I really don't think you could have phrased it any better. That was like perfect dating 101 advice for everyone out there. So thank you. Thank you Wensday for joining me today on Including You. As was stated in today's episode, remember, everyone has a right to date. They have a right to be single, to be choosy, and it's even okay to feel lonely too. Make sure to check out the show notes for additional links and resources from today's show. At Disability Rights Arkansas, we envision an Arkansas where people with disabilities are equal members in their communities and can dictate their lives through self determination. And as made clear in today's episode, we can't create that change without bringing self advocates to the table. If you're interested in more information, make sure to subscribe to this podcast and visit our website.